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Thread: Rambling and Gambling

  1. #5901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quixall Crossett View Post
    Does anyone else have any views on this experiment of having bookmakers on course for the benefit of owners at York and a couple of other tracks ?
    I managed to get to a few meetings pre -lockdown and at each one the bookies were struggling to drum up that much business. And that was with the paying public in attendance !
    And i just cant see Khalid Abdullah, Maktoum Al Maktoum, The Queen et al ducking and diving between bookies to see if they can grab some 11/4 to beat the 5/2 that is on offer at the next pitch.


    They will take a couple of bets no doubt but i just cant help thinking its a complete waste of time. Although its nowhere near as ridiculous as the cardboard cut out figures of spectators at football games and the crowd noise being blasted over the tannoy. Sheer lunacy.
    I think anything that may help the odd bookmaker out, no matter how little it may be, if it makes them more money than it would do by not turning up and gets someone off furlough, then it has to be a good thing. I hope the racecourses are waiving or reducing their fees accordingly though. I don't have a great deal of sympathy for bookies generally but I don't think racecourses realise how much they are part of the raceday experience for some people.

    It's easy to think that, because we all have online accounts (and before that, telephone accounts) that almost everyone does but many of your one time or less a year punters won't have and if on course bookies end up going it will be a bad day for everyone except the tote.

  2. #5902
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    Quote Originally Posted by ONEDUNME View Post
    I think anything that may help the odd bookmaker out, no matter how little it may be, if it makes them more money than it would do by not turning up and gets someone off furlough, then it has to be a good thing. I hope the racecourses are waiving or reducing their fees accordingly though. I don't have a great deal of sympathy for bookies generally but I don't think racecourses realise how much they are part of the raceday experience for some people.

    It's easy to think that, because we all have online accounts (and before that, telephone accounts) that almost everyone does but many of your one time or less a year punters won't have and if on course bookies end up going it will be a bad day for everyone except the tote.

    Where do i start ?

    Anything that helps ANYBODY out during these harsh financial times is always going to be a help. But i have a few points to raise on your comments mate. First of all you are working on the assumption that the two bookies will win on the day. That is not a gimme. Many punters think that bookies just turn up at the track or open their front doors and the money starts rolling in. A lot of the oldies think back to what John Banks said about betting shops being "A licence to print money" !
    Many years ago it was probably true. But as i always say when we get on this topic, the expenses, overheads etc are a killer ! And losing days come round regularly although a lot of punters would just laugh at that suggestion.
    I hope they do well and nick a few quid over and above what expenses they do have this week. But if i had the choice of being one of two bookmakers who were going to stand at the track when only owners and stable staff were allowed in, or to stand on a day when the once a year punters were allowed in, it doesnt take Einstein to work out which day i would work.

    Racecourse bookmakers are part of the racecourse experience for some people. But nowhere near what they were many moons ago. A lot of the colour and variety has gone. The same prices on every board as you walk down the line. And all just slaves to Betfair. Many punters have probably already done their betting by the time they get to the track. And if they want a bet during the meeting, as you say, they will use their phones to do so. Why take 5/2 with the track bookie when you will probably get 3.8 on the machine ?
    And the once a year punters are usually seen at a "special" day (Ladies day, pop group, works outing etc) and they will be confined to the summer months. In the last three years or so i have been to meetings at Fontwell, Wincanton, Catterick, Sedgefield, Hexham, Towcester (just before it closed) and Warwick during the months of November, December, January and February and i can assure you that there were no once a year specials on then with not a pop group, ladies top to toe in Armani with their fascinators or anything ! Just the old regulars who wouldnt miss a meeting and who stand or sit in the place place every time because there is so much room to move about.

    Sorry to paint a bleak picture but it has been this way for quite a while now. Racecourse bookie days are numbered and they all know it. Its not what it was and will never go back to those days i'm sad to say. I wish them all well, i still have many friends who are still doing it.

    And as for the Tote !!
    You know my thoughts on them. I used to list the comparisons on SP and tote returns often enough but it just got monotonous. If you want 6/4 about a 9/4 winner then the Tote is the place to go.

    Depressing reply over.

  3. #5903
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quixall Crossett View Post

    Where do i start ?

    Anything that helps ANYBODY out during these harsh financial times is always going to be a help. But i have a few points to raise on your comments mate. First of all you are working on the assumption that the two bookies will win on the day. That is not a gimme. Many punters think that bookies just turn up at the track or open their front doors and the money starts rolling in. A lot of the oldies think back to what John Banks said about betting shops being "A licence to print money" !
    Many years ago it was probably true. But as i always say when we get on this topic, the expenses, overheads etc are a killer ! And losing days come round regularly although a lot of punters would just laugh at that suggestion.
    I hope they do well and nick a few quid over and above what expenses they do have this week. But if i had the choice of being one of two bookmakers who were going to stand at the track when only owners and stable staff were allowed in, or to stand on a day when the once a year punters were allowed in, it doesnt take Einstein to work out which day i would work.

    Racecourse bookmakers are part of the racecourse experience for some people. But nowhere near what they were many moons ago. A lot of the colour and variety has gone. The same prices on every board as you walk down the line. And all just slaves to Betfair. Many punters have probably already done their betting by the time they get to the track. And if they want a bet during the meeting, as you say, they will use their phones to do so. Why take 5/2 with the track bookie when you will probably get 3.8 on the machine ?
    And the once a year punters are usually seen at a "special" day (Ladies day, pop group, works outing etc) and they will be confined to the summer months. In the last three years or so i have been to meetings at Fontwell, Wincanton, Catterick, Sedgefield, Hexham, Towcester (just before it closed) and Warwick during the months of November, December, January and February and i can assure you that there were no once a year specials on then with not a pop group, ladies top to toe in Armani with their fascinators or anything ! Just the old regulars who wouldnt miss a meeting and who stand or sit in the place place every time because there is so much room to move about.

    Sorry to paint a bleak picture but it has been this way for quite a while now. Racecourse bookie days are numbered and they all know it. Its not what it was and will never go back to those days i'm sad to say. I wish them all well, i still have many friends who are still doing it.

    And as for the Tote !!
    You know my thoughts on them. I used to list the comparisons on SP and tote returns often enough but it just got monotonous. If you want 6/4 about a 9/4 winner then the Tote is the place to go.

    Depressing reply over.

    Plenty to go at there

    "Racecourse bookmakers are part of the racecourse experience for some people. But nowhere near what they were many moons ago. "

    Obviously but harping back to the "good old days" isn't going to help anyone. They've gone - let it go.


    "Many punters have probably already done their betting by the time they get to the track."


    Again, you're looking from a perspective of gamblers rather than casual racegoers. I think you might be surprised by the number of people who turn up on coaches on pub trips etc with their readies in their pocket and not even a clue as to what's running until they buy their precious racecard when they enter the course. Nor do I agree that they are confined to the summer months, although I'll grant you that they will normally be a saturday or bank holiday thing.

    "But if i had the choice of being one of two bookmakers who were going to stand at the track when only owners and stable staff were allowed in, or to stand on a day when the once a year punters were allowed in, it doesnt take Einstein to work out which day i would work."

    You don't have a choice. The bookies either chance their arms with what's on offer or they don't . The bottom line is that some of them have been given the option to go and give it a go. If they don't want to bother, nobody is twisting their arms. I've heard enough moaning from them on various conversations on the Racing channels about not being able to get on course and try to earn a living.

    The racing industry doesn't exist to make on course bookies a living and if we end up with a situation where we have 30 of them working on the popular race days and half a dozen on the run of the mill weekday dross, so be it. As you've already said, most of the fuckers are putting the same prices up so why do we loads of them all offering the same prices? Maybe if the odd one offers an opinion every now and again and makes his/her book accordingly, they might stand out and get more business.


    "And as for the Tote !!
    You know my thoughts on them. I used to list the comparisons on SP and tote returns often enough but it just got monotonous. If you want 6/4 about a 9/4 winner then the Tote is the place to go."

    Baldy Fred is what fucked the Tote up. Don't get me wrong, I would never use the thing anyway but have been on many a course where one of my party has been paid out a fair bit more than the bookie would have paid out but, as you said, that was in the old days before that greedy bald bastard got hold of it. I remember going to York several years ago on a Friday and trying to explain to my mate why he'd be a fucking idiot to bet with the tote as their prices were flashing up just before a race and all but one was worse than could be got with a few online bookie accounts.

    Thankfully the Tote has moved on from the bald Manc and I think it's encouraging what they're trying to do with it in terms of expanding it to international betting pots rather than just UK pools and I hope that the new lot are forward- thinking enough to see that if you keep ripping people off like Fred did, there's only one way that your pool pots are going and that's downwards. If they decide not to innovate, no skin off my nose. They can continue to rob an ever decreasing number of naive punters and make less money than they could otherwise.
    Last edited by ONEDUNME; 17-08-2020 at 15:42.

  4. #5904
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    Great reply mate, thanks. That is what is needed on here, a good discussion with opinions aplenty.

    But...................

    I wasnt so much harping back to the old days regarding oncourse bookmakers. You are right when you say "they've gone", but i would use that for the bookmakers rather than the old days. Their numbers are dwindling as time goes by and only the strongest few are going to survive.
    And things are so bad during the winter months, i know quite a few of the lads dont even bother and have Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb off. Some do other things over that period and some i know who have managed to nick a few quid over the previous seven months or so go to Thailand.
    The lack of interest in those months also ties in with the lack of cash at the tracks. I am talking about "regular racegoers" rather than the bloke who goes on his local pub outing every August. I have no doubt there will be plenty of readies flying around on those days but those days are very few and far between. I went to about seven or eight meetings between Dec and the lockdown and there were always far more people in the course betting shop than were lining up to back with the book. I doubt i saw more than three people in any queue during those days out due to a number of reasons. I would think that some put their bets on before they go, some phone them in at the track and others use the betting shop at the track. Its part because thats the way they bet these days, they have got into the habit of phoning in or going online but i would also know that the magic has gone from the betting ring. It is a desolate place, almost morgue like.
    As for the choice of which day i would like to be a bookie, thats easy. NEVER !!!
    Those days are long gone and anybody who says they would like to be an oncourse bookmaker obviously doesnt like money. I wouldnt have a pitch given even if you put a gun to my head.

    Over to you

  5. #5905
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    QC -did you do a tissue on the 5.20 fontwell?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jombo View Post
    QC -did you do a tissue on the 5.20 fontwell?
    I didnt mate. I did the 2.45, 3.15 and 3.45. It actually looks my type of race but i havent got time to do it now.

  7. #5907
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quixall Crossett View Post
    Great reply mate, thanks. That is what is needed on here, a good discussion with opinions aplenty.

    But...................

    I wasnt so much harping back to the old days regarding oncourse bookmakers. You are right when you say "they've gone", but i would use that for the bookmakers rather than the old days. Their numbers are dwindling as time goes by and only the strongest few are going to survive.
    And things are so bad during the winter months, i know quite a few of the lads dont even bother and have Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb off. Some do other things over that period and some i know who have managed to nick a few quid over the previous seven months or so go to Thailand.
    The lack of interest in those months also ties in with the lack of cash at the tracks. I am talking about "regular racegoers" rather than the bloke who goes on his local pub outing every August. I have no doubt there will be plenty of readies flying around on those days but those days are very few and far between. I went to about seven or eight meetings between Dec and the lockdown and there were always far more people in the course betting shop than were lining up to back with the book. I doubt i saw more than three people in any queue during those days out due to a number of reasons. I would think that some put their bets on before they go, some phone them in at the track and others use the betting shop at the track. Its part because thats the way they bet these days, they have got into the habit of phoning in or going online but i would also know that the magic has gone from the betting ring. It is a desolate place, almost morgue like.
    As for the choice of which day i would like to be a bookie, thats easy. NEVER !!!
    Those days are long gone and anybody who says they would like to be an oncourse bookmaker obviously doesnt like money. I wouldnt have a pitch given even if you put a gun to my head.

    Over to you

    Yeah, times are changing everywhere and people have to change with them. I think you and I come at different angles when it comes to on course bookmakers for obvious reasons. I understand the view that they add to the whole atmosphere on racedays and buzz of the pre-race build up but, on the other side of the coin, my experience of them personally is that a good many of them are/were surly arseholes and many of them look down their noses at the people queuing up to give them their money, snapping at them if they didn't understand what each way meant or giving them short shrift if they dare to not notice the "Minimum bet 5" notice at the bottom of their boards.

    I've had many a run-in over the years with wankers trying to rip me off so God only knows how many people they ripped off who didn't know what they were doing. The best innovation was the printed ticket that told you exactly what your returns would be as it cut down the opportunity to short change a winning punter flustered by the gathering queue behind them and hurry them along out of the way.

    Magic of the betting ring my arse

    On the flip side, many a time I've seen people go back to the same bookie every race, regardless of what price their horse was showing at on the board, just because the bookie has taken the time to "have the craic" or even just wish them good luck and some have just gone back because they've won with them on the first race and didn't want to change their luck. It takes all sorts.

    I think what I'm getting to is that, of all the people in the world affected by events this year, bookmakers will come so low down on my list for sympathy that you wouldn't be able to see it with the world's most powerful telescope. You say you know people who don't bother in the winter months, or find other things to do. That's no different to an Ice Cream Man or a bloke who runs and amusement arcade in the summer. They'll just have to adapt or find something else to do.


    As for your comments on weekday racing. I've done it on a few occasions and it's generally been a pretty miserable and soul destroying exercise at the best of times when all you have rattling around a course are locals and hard core racegoers - even a decade ago. But again, you come at it from a different angle to me and you're happy to travel there to watch the racing and eat cake. I like a bit of atmosphere and a beer (and preferably a bit of sunshine but even that has been too much to ask for on most occasions, even in summer). I've been to the Friday meeting in the middle of June for the last four years (this would have been the fifth) and it's rained every fucking time. Middle of June!

    Shocking
    Last edited by ONEDUNME; 17-08-2020 at 17:02.

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    Yeah, times are changing everywhere and people have to change with them. I think you and I come at different angles when it comes to on course bookmakers for obvious reasons. I understand the view that they add to the whole atmosphere on racedays and buzz of the pre-race build up but, on the other side of the coin, my experience of them personally is that a good many of them are/were surly arseholes and many of them look down their noses at the people queuing up to give them their money, snapping at them if they didn't understand what each way meant or giving them short shrift if they dare to not notice the "Minimum bet 5" notice at the bottom of their boards.

    I've had many a run-in over the years with wankers trying to rip me off so God only knows how many people they ripped off who didn't know what they were doing. The best innovation was the printed ticket that told you exactly what your returns would be as it cut down the opportunity to short change a winning punter flustered by the gathering queue behind them and hurry them along out of the way.

    Magic of the betting ring my arse


    Totally agree mate. There were some right tossers around years ago and i've had a run in with one or two in my time. I almost came to blows with one at Ponty many years ago when he was coming it with my old man.
    But these days i obviously dont use them so couldnt comment. I only venture into the ring for a natter with a mate or two.
    All that said, there are tossers in all walks of life and business.

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    As for your comments on weekday racing. I've done it on a few occasions and it's generally been a pretty miserable and soul destroying exercise at the best of times when all you have rattling around a course are locals and hard core racegoers - even a decade ago. But again, you come at it from a different angle to me and you're happy to travel there to watch the racing and eat cake. I like a bit of atmosphere and a beer (and preferably a bit of sunshine but even that has been too much to ask for on most occasions, even in summer). I've been to the Friday meeting in the middle of June for the last four years (this would have been the fifth) and it's rained every fucking time. Middle of June!

    Each to their own mate. I go purely for the racing !! End of. If i've bothered getting involved in a race its already done and dusted. I dont drink at the races (cue clancy calling me a boring old git ) although i will eat cake if someone else is buying. I do prefer the midweek quieter meetings so i can flit from pre parade ring to parade ring to the stands and then do it all over again without having to barge thru crowds or tip toe over empty pint glasses and cans as if i was going thru a minefield.

    Each to their own

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    those 2 jocks that they stayed over on the far side in that 4.20 should be brought in and ask to explain themselves!

    I know they were drawn 1 and 2 but still that's no excuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jombo View Post
    those 2 jocks that they stayed over on the far side in that 4.20 should be brought in and ask to explain themselves!

    I know they were drawn 1 and 2 but still that's no excuse.
    Agreed mate. Its as if they hadnt watched the previous races. We can all study and study and study some more but one thing we dont take into account is jockey stupidity.

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    As for your comments on weekday racing. I've done it on a few occasions and it's generally been a pretty miserable and soul destroying exercise at the best of times when all you have rattling around a course are locals and hard core racegoers - even a decade ago. But again, you come at it from a different angle to me and you're happy to travel there to watch the racing and eat cake. I like a bit of atmosphere and a beer (and preferably a bit of sunshine but even that has been too much to ask for on most occasions, even in summer). I've been to the Friday meeting in the middle of June for the last four years (this would have been the fifth) and it's rained every fucking time. Middle of June!

    What you say about the midweek meetings is generally true, definitely so from October to February, but how do you think it is going to be when the racecourses are finally allowed to let the spectators in ? The missus and I are busting a gut to go but once the novelty of going for a day out has gone, reality is going to kick in big time. Hundreds of jobs are being lost every day but that is obviously the only ones you hear about. In reality plenty more go alongside those jobs. When a factory or office block closes down, all the cafes, sandwich shops, pubs etc in the vicinity also feel the effect and jobs go there as well. I read something just yesterday that said an estimated 2 million jobs are going to be lost to this virus. That is a mind boggling figure and i dread to think of the effect it is going to have on many households. The "leisure" pound is going to take a massive hit and, for one, racecourses are going to have to have a rethink of their entrance fees. If i remember rightly, i think we paid an average of 16/17 to get in when we attended meetings pre- lockdown. In the whole scheme of things, that is not too bad. But the world has changed and EVERY business is going to have to adapt. As the saying goes, "Adapt or die" !!
    The ONLY way they are going to attract people to the track is to drop the entrance fee because in this day and age, the average man on the street will just not be able to afford it. And of course, no punters at the track means oncourse bookmakers are no more !
    Whether the tracks do sit down and think about it is a different matter though. For me, it is a no brainer. A 10 maximum charge would possibly still be to too much for many but at least it might tempt some to go. But, as i have said on here a couple of times in the past, i have written to a couple of tracks in the past year or so with an observation (complaint) and they havent had the decency to reply. But this is where the "class" problem crops up where racing is concerned and i have no doubt they felt that they didnt have to reply or explain themselves to a commoner like me. But if they want to survive, they are going to have to do something and coming back down to live on Planet Earth would be a start. They are not exempt from all of this turmoil and if they dont adapt, tracks will close. The greed and elitism has to stop and reality has to kick in. I noted trainer David Griffiths comments yesterday when he had a dig at York. He was bemoaning the fact that the prize money for The Nunthorpe this year has dropped from 400,000. down to 250,000 and yet York were still charging 5,000 entry fee. From where i am sitting, that is just another kick in the nuts for the owners. You all know about owners. The people who buy the horses and pay the training fees etc and without whom, we would not have a sport to follow ! Paying a bloody big whack to enter a race and yet see prize money drop by 37.5 %. Prize money has dropped at every track for obvious reasons and racecourses are going to have to have s serious look at their business model.
    There is no point me asking if they will, they HAVE TO !!!!!!!

    i know its probably a depressing read but it is reality.

    Thoughts anyone ?
    Last edited by Quixall Crossett; 18-08-2020 at 09:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quixall Crossett View Post
    Agreed mate. Its as if they hadnt watched the previous races. We can all study and study and study some more but one thing we dont take into account is jockey stupidity.
    Nothing to do with jockey stupid
    All to do with what the gaffer tells THEM
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    I remember back when The Thatcher government was at it's best they wanted 4million on the dole it keeps the wages low and the staff in jobs not wanting to move keeps the rich at the top
    why does it hurt when I pee ? Frank Zappa R.I.P

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    If ever you wanted evidence of how clueless Skybet are and how they wouldnt know if a horse should be 10/11 or 10/1, then have a look at the betting in the 5.20 at Stratford tomorrow. I've mentioned it before a few times on here about how they dont know what to do so they go in between whatever prices Bet365 and Hills are
    Those two have gone 2/1 and 5/2 Dancing In The Sky, Skybet are in between at 9/4.
    The two have gone 3/1 and 7/2 Mon Palais, Skybet are in between at 10/3.
    They've gone 3/1 and 4/1 Blue N Yellow. Skybet are 7/2.
    Then its 8/1 and 12/1 Murray Mount. Skybet are 10's.
    Then its 12/1 and 16/1 Cut The Corner. Skybet again are in between at 14/1

    They do it every day. It keeps me amused

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    Aftertimer alert!

    hats off to sean houlihan!

    i was cursing myself for not laying off stake..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jombo View Post
    Aftertimer alert!

    hats off to sean houlihan!

    i was cursing myself for not laying off stake..

    Wish i'd looked at the race now.

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    I seldom see you mentioning Class of race - Do you pass much heed of it or do you just focus on ratings? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clancy View Post
    QC
    I seldom see you mentioning Class of race - Do you pass much heed of it or do you just focus on ratings? Thanks.
    Five minuted to kill, an absolute glut of races to do over the weekend.

    I'll save you the time but if you checked back over my time on here you would realise that it is most important to me. It should actually be important to everyone who studies and takes the game serious. But from my point of view, the lower the grade, the better. Its in those sort of races that i make my money every day. Thats where you find the ricks, thats where you find the "lesser" trainers. And those two go hand in hand.

    Have fun, good luck.

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    Thanks - I was thinking more about Class droppers for example - but anyway I note your comment.

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